PA/USATF LDR Committee Meeting Minutes for May 8, 2005
Zippy 5K Start/Finish area, near Conservatory of Flowers, Golden Gate
Park, San Francisco
Submitted by Linda M. Hall, as amended and supplemented by Tyler Abbott

Members in attendance were: Tyler Abbott (men’s chair, New Balance
Excelsior), Cary Craig (cross-country co-chair, Golden Valley Harriers),
Linda M. Hall (secretary, Buffalo Chips), Thom Trimble (Pacific Striders),
Tony Coffey (Asics Aggies), Kim Rupert (West Valley Track Club), Barb
Wismer (West Valley Track Club), Mark Winitz (West Valley Joggers &
Striders), Nelda Williams (Impalas), Karen Ribble (Impalas), Tom Bernhard
(road scorer, New Balance Excelsior), Susan Beck (road grand prix bid
coordinator, Iguanas), Don Porteous (cross country co-chair, Tamalpa),
Irene Herman (PA membership chair, Impalas), Frank Ruona (Tamalpa),
Stephen Bambury (Asics Aggies), Tim Geraghty (New Balance Excelsior), Jim
Gorman (New Balance Excelsior), Doug Thurston (Fleet Feet Sacramento).

The meeting was called to order (in the rain!) at 10:55 am.

The minutes from the previous meeting, following Across the Bay 12K, were
conditionally approved as submitted with the proviso that they would be
corrected later if necessary because they were submitted late and some
committee members may not have had time to review them. [As of press date,
it seems that no corrections will be made, except for the following list
of committee members in attendance: Frank Ruona,(Tamalpa), Stephanie
Bambury, Jill Boaz (both Asics Aggies), Susan Beck,(Iguanas), Don
Porteous,(Tamalpa), Tony Coffey,(Asics Aggies), Irene Herman, Cheryl
Shwe,(both Impala), Tom Bernard, Tim Wason, (both NB Excelsior), Julie
Fingar, (FF Sac), Kristian Petersen(Rebels, co-Secretary), Mark
Winitz,(WVJS), Todd Rose, Kim Rupert, Tony Fong, (all WVTC), Tyler Abbott,
(NB Excelsior-Chair), Hollis Lenderking, (BAUR), Tim O'Rourke and Lloyd
Stephenson, (both NB Excelsior).]

Cross Country Subcommittee Report by Cary Craig: 
Previously the committee had approved the following cross country races:
9/3 Empire
9/10 Golden Gate Park
10/1 Presidio
10/22 Shoreline
10/29 Tamalpa
11/6 PA Champs

Cary reported that a bid from Santa Cruz had been received and Presidio
had expressed an intent to bid but no bid had been submitted yet.  A
motion was made and passed unanimously to add Santa Cruz 
(8/27) and the Asics Aggie Challenge in Folsom on 10/8 to the above list
of races (after West Valley Track Club expressed that they would be unable
to procure Crystal Springs on that day).  This will provide an 8 race
circuit for the Fall 2005. Cary will go back to Asics Aggies about adding
their race to the circuit.

No Ultra Subcommittee report. No Sponsorship/Fundraising Subcommittee

LDR Banquet

The Impalas are on course.

Rules Changes:

Relay Scoring:  Team members in a relay event are limited to scoring (for
grand prix purposes) only one leg for that team and to scoring (for grand
prix purposes) on only one team. This motion passed unanimously. 

Proposals by Stephenson to limit the cross country season and increase
cross country prize money were postponed to the next meeting.

Motion {Boaz} to divide Road Grand Prix into first half (1/1-7/31) and
second half (8/1-12/31) to replace the current Short/Long Race division of
the Grand Prix.  After extensive discussion, this motion failed

10k Classification, proposal to change the rules so that Long Race
Schedule can include the 10k distance: A friendly amendment by Thom
Trimble to clarify that any 10K could be in either the short or long
series, and that the LDR Committee would determine which circuit for each
10K, was accepted. The amended motion passed unanimously.

Road Grand Prix Limitation: Motion {Trimble} to limit the number of races
in the road grand prix to 12 and even up the number of races to 6 in the
short gp, 6 in the long, with possibility of one 10K in each. Amendment
proposed {Porteous} to limit the number of races to 14 plus relay, score
five in each for individuals, have teams drop 2 (currently 1), and drop
10K language since this is dealt with by previous rule change. Amendment
to amendment proposed to have individuals score up to six races in each
circuit and delete the change in team scoring. Latter amendment passed.
First amendment passed as amended. Main motions passed, as amended. (Final
motion limits the road gp to 14 races + relay, with individuals scoring up
to six races in each gp.)

Motion: The total number of accepted race bids for a calendar year shall
not exceed 12 plus the relay.  This motion was withdrawn

Motion: No more than 2 bids will be accepted for "short" races of a given
distance (shorter than 12 k). Motion was defeated 4-8-1.

Motion: No more than one bid will be accepted for any "long" races of a
given distance (longer than 10k).  An amendment was proposed to make this
a guideline rather than a rule {Porteous}. The amendment was withdrawn by
Don Porteous.  Motion was defeated 1-11-1.

Motion: No bid will be accepted for a race occurring before February 16 or
after December 15. An amendment was proposed {Herman} to make this a
guideline not a rule.  The main motion with the amendment was approved

Motion: No bid will be accepted for a race occurring after July 14 and
before September 1. An amendment was proposed {Porteus} to make this a
guideline not a rule. The main motion with the amendment was approved

After friendly amendments, a motion {Shwe} to restrict the short road
grand prix to races between February 15 and July 15, as a guideline only,
passed unanimously.

Proposal to drop one race in the long grand prix was withdrawn.

2005 Road Grand Prix Schedule

It was confirmed that Christmas Relays were definitely to be held 12/11.


None were reported

LDR Chair Nominations

At the prior meeting, Julie Fingar, Tyler Abbott, and Lloyd Stephenson
were (re-)nominated as women’s, men’s and master’s LDR chairs. This
meeting marked the close of nominations. No other persons were nominated,
so the three mentioned above were re-elected.

2006 Budget

It was moved and unanimously approved to submit the same budget to the PA
that we had last year, with the exception that the banquet would be
handled “off budget.” There was a reminder that much if not most of our
funds come through race sanctions. The relevant parts of this are:


$2,000	  Race prize money, net of prize money payouts
$1,000	  Cross country race money, $100/race


$15,000	  Road grand prix (raised up to $20,000 if extra “LDR source”
income comes in)
$8,000	  Cross country grand prix
$3,000	  Ultra grand prix
$1,000	  LDR banquet (awards, award booklets)
$1,000	  Road race travel
$1,000	  Cross country travel
$1,000	  Ultra travel

Race Evaluation Form
Mark Winitz proposed reinstituting a rating sheet for feedback from the
races suggesting this will be a valuable tool for all clubs.  It was
suggested that the (absent) Grand Prix coordinator would take charge of
collecting and summarizing these data.  Mark will work with Doug Thurston
to develop a full questionnaire.   

There will be no meeting following the Marin Memorial Day Races because
the necessary business was covered here. The next meeting will follow the
Jamba Juice Race on September 18, 2005.  

Meeting was adjourned at 11:45 am.
Appendix I: Proposed LDR Guide/Race Contract Housekeeping {Stephenson}

[This appendix will likely be shortened in the final version of the
minutes as we eliminate items which are purely housekeeping, such as
implementing previously-approved rules changes. Comments below are from
Lloyd Stephenson.]

There is no real urgency to approving section A or C, yet we cannot
properly evaluate the bids for 2006 without knowing the current LDR
Guide, which isn't posted. The race directors would no doubt prefer
current information as well.

I recommend looking at the posted Guide next to my changes. 

LDR Guide Changes: Recommended, and Required (OVERVIEW)

A. Copy editing: Sloppy, inaccurate, incomplete, ambiguous, or
otherwise misleading  text.

B. Contract changes needed or recommended.

C. Changes made in our rules or guidelines, from minutes of LDR
meetings since Jan. 2003, the date of the posted version. 


A. Sections with problems, and my recommendations.  (The
Ultra changes* are straight from Hollis, and have more legal authority
than my other attempts at clarification.)

Introduction: Where we state various rules and bylaws are available,
insert "free" between "available" and "from"; change "office" to
"website"; then insert,
in the proper spots. Full PDF files are there.

1.1b  Add at end "See Cross Country Guide for details, and for rules
specific to cross country."

1.1.c*  End first sentence after "events". Insert new second and third
sentences "These are events that fit the USATF description of
Mountain, Ultra, or Trail (MUT), and are usually longer than a
marathon. See Ultra Rules for details and for rules specific to

3.3  This is a mess! The paraphrasing of the PA Bylaws is inaccurate
and confusing. We mean to include all three Grand Prix, don't we, and
not just Road?  When does "competes" apply-last season, last race,
last four races? The last sentence seems to contradict the first two.
The old hands need to tell us what was intended, or else I will submit
a clear version to replace this.

3.1,2,4  Which meeting is our annual meeting per the PA Bylaws? That
meeting requires 30 days notice. What notice do we need for other
meetings? Insert in the second sentence of 3.4 between "... are sent
to" and "one declared..." this: "the LDR Executive Committee and to".
Perhaps the Chair could make a short general announcement as early as
possible about meeting dates, then try for a minimum of 10 days or 2
weeks for formal notice with an agenda and prior minutes. This seems
ideal, and little different from now (when we are working well).

4.1  End the second sentence with a comma, add "except as provided in
4.2." Replace third sentence with "The Pacific Association includes,
and is limited to, the State of California north of Inyo, Fresno,
Madera, Mariposa, Merced, Kings, and Santa Barbara counties; and the
counties of Humboldt, Washoe, Pershing, Churchill, Storey, Lyon,
Mineral, Douglas, and Carson City in the State of Nevada." Straight
from USATF.

4.4  Does "last competition" mean last start in former uniform, last
finish, or last occurrence of scoring for a team? If we mean the
latter, do we specify that they were one of the members scored on a
team that was scored? I suggest leaving all current copy, and
inserting a new third sentence. "This means the last race the athlete
scored on a team, or the last race they finished in which their old
club scored a team in his or her age group." Thus if a master raced in
old colors and the old club scored an all submaster open team and no
master team, then they would not have to count that race for the 90
days, yet they might have displaced in a XC race. A clearer and
slightly more harsh version: "This means the last race the athlete
finished (in the former uniform?) in which the former club scored any
team for which they were eligible, looking down only one age group."
So, a senior is not charged if the old club scores no team above open,
but is if a master team scored.

7.3  The first two verbs in the first sentence seem wrong. "Invited"
is strange, and could be well replaced by "eligible" or "allowed". As
usual, "compete" needs to be replaced by "score".

9.3*  Drop second sentence. Add: "The schedule for the Cross Country
Grand Prix is approved by the LDR Committee in the spring or early
summer of each year. The schedule for the Ultrarunning  Grand Prix is
approved by the LDR Committee in the fall or early winter for the
coming year."

9.4  This standard contract should be on the website for potential
bidders to review, and it doesn't seem to be there. See B. By the way,
we say nothing else about race administration, directly or otherwise.

10.2*  Veteran Individuals are 70 & up.

10.3  We also set road awards for Veterans as 70 & up, so the five
year age groups stop at 64-69. Insert before parenthesis "through
super senior". Unless, an old meeting actually intended this, in
contrast to prize $, GP scoring, and comp entries. What do we mean by
"divisions" in section 10?

11.1a  Just above the columns, seven commas would be a nice addition
for readability.

11.3  A new tangle, see below in C. Does the new rule mean we still
must drop one short race even if there are fewer than seven? Do we
drop more than one long race in GP scoring, even when they are
multi-point? The long series could have nine races, with three 10k
races and a marathon added to the 2005 schedule. Since there are no
minutes from 5/05 meeting, perhaps the chair can state what was meant,
if it was clear then.

12.2b  Drop first sentence. Replace with "The cumulative point total
of the top runners on a team will determine the rank order and points
awarded as above. Top runners are counted as follows: Teams of open
and master men, and open women, first five finishers; senior men,
first four finishers; all other teams first three finishers." Is it
true that open women teams need five finishers for XC, but only three
for road?

13.2a  Between "scoring value" and "exceed", insert "of an event".

13.2g* Replace current copy with: "Each event is assigned a distance
factor, expressed as a numerical ratio of its distance relative to
50K, which is assigned the basic value of 1.0.~ Examples: 50M receives
a distance factor of~1.6, 100K receives a factor of 2.0, 100M a factor
of 3.3."

13.2h* Replace "1.0" with ".5". 

14.5 If double dipping is not allowed, what happens to unclaimed
prizes? Go to next in line, or forfeited? Our intent, from Jan. '03
meeting, has been that all prizes should be paid if there are eligible
recipients. Add to end of section: "If an athlete is precluded from
receiving a prize due to this rule, that prize shall be awarded to the
next eligible finisher. All prizes for which there are eligible
recipients should be paid."

15.1 After "... will be determined by the" replace "LDR committee"
with " Pacific Association Board of Athletics, based partly on LDR
Committee requests."

15.2   After "The following table", insert ", combined with 17.1,".
Otherwise, the $20,000 total is not obvious.

16.1  The paucity of information here can easily mislead. Beneath the
chart, add: "This is per gender, for both Long and Short Series, so
the annual comp entries total 68 per gender, 136 in all. Since a race
is in only one series, each race is obligated to a comp list of 68
athletes." See rule change from 3/04 in C below.

17.1   After "The following table", insert ", combined with 15.2," .

18.3  Drop "mailed or" from second sentence.

18.4  This is archaic and has not been done for years. Drop this

18.5    Ditto

22.1  We don't want two votes, do we? Let's end the second sentence at
the comma, then say " Any proposed amendment must include an effective
date clearly stated or implied. The complete proposed amendment must
be included in posted minutes of the meeting in which it will be voted
upon." This is closer to the minutes of 1/03. Now we return to 3.4,
and meeting notices.

22.3 New proposed rule from me: "Any proposed change or addition to
this Guide shall specify by number which section it affects."

B. Contract with race director/promoter:

#1 (or somewhere) Specify that: "The race is to be administered
according to all applicable parts of the posted Pacific Association
LDR Guide. This is in addition to the applicable current USATF Rules
of Competition, which the sanction requires. The Guide supplements,
and occasionally amends, these Rules, as allowed therein."

#10 Drop USATF# from Entry Form requirements. All members are now
scored automatically, yet race personnel are often asked if a race day
entrant will be scored if they don't remember their member #. This
wastes time on race morning.

#14 Change to match 10.3 in A above.

#16 or 17 Bid form does not specify what happens to unclaimed double
dip money, see 14.5 in A and line after #20 here.

#18 Replace 1 with 3 before "super senior", add that race only liable
for comp entries for corresponding series, long or short.

#19 Why shouldn't we drop this? Appears redundant to #3.

#20 This doesn't belong-it's part of the Guide, and not the
responsibility of a race director. 


Include in Grand Prix bid contract that prize money declined by a top
finisher goes to the next finisher.

Include in Grand Prix bid contract that any unclaimed prize money will
be returned to the race director (in the case where there are fewer
competing individuals or teams in the specific age division than there
are money spots). 

1/04  From minutes: "If runners go off course due to event management
negligence as determined by the LDR Committee, a penalty of up to $500
may be imposed on that race." This should go in whatever GP
contract/bid form applies, see comment below.

C. These are amendments approved at meetings,  which have never
been posted. The intent is taken from minutes. We don't need to
vote on the items for content, but perhaps for wording.

1/12/03 Stockton

11.4 [new paragraph] "The 24 hour official protest period starts after
the official results are posted on the PA Web site (which means the
race has been scored)." This appears to apply to individuals only,
since teams have 10 days per 18.3.

5/11/03 San Francisco

13.2a End second sentence with a comma, add "no race can be more than
1.0 points higher than the next highest race in that series (Long or

10/18/03  Humboldt

14.3 Insert new data in chart, replacing old. The standard ($2500)
Road Grand Prix prize money breakdown will be, for open teams,
$225/125/50; for master teams, $125/75; and for seniors, $50
individual/$75 team instead of $75 individual/$50 team. 

11/9/03  Clarksburg

22.2 "Any rule change made for the Road Grand Prix wherein the rule
being changed is the same for the Cross Country Grand Prix and that
does not conflict with Cross Country guidelines will automatically
apply to Cross Country."

1/11/04 Stockton

9.4 Second sentence: "If runners go off course due to event management
negligence as determined by the LDR Committee, a penalty of up to $500
may be imposed on that race." This was created because of a cross
country problem. The minutes and my memory don't indicate if it was
intended for all LDR or only XC. This should certainly be a contract
clause for the events concerned, as well as be in the Guide (or XC

3/21/04 San Francisco

14.3 Individual Super Senior road race winners will be awarded $25.
The senior division road race winner will receive $50 (down from $75).

15.2 2nd place masters prize money $250 (down from $300), 1st place
senior winners $200 (down from $250), $100  award to season end 1st
place Super Senior. [The before figures here don't match the currently
posted Guide.]

16.1 Award comp entries to the top three season end road grand prix
super seniors instead of just the top one.

11/14/04 Clarksburg

16.4 Add after second sentence: "In addition, an athlete who would
otherwise be comped may choose to decline the complimentary entries.
In this case also the next eligible runner shall receive the comped

1/9/05 Stockton

14.3 Open 225/125/50; Masters 120/65, Senior 60, Supersenior 30.

14.3a or 14.4a New section:

For 1.5 (RECOMMENDED): Open 300/175/100; Masters 160/80; Senior 70;
Supersenior 40.

For 2.0 (RECOMMENDED): Open 400/250/125/75; Masters 250/120/60; Senior
90/40; Supersenior 40.

For 3.0 (RECOMMENDED): Open 600/325/175/100; Masters 320/160/100;
Senior 110/60; Supersenior 50.

3.6 Replace all prior copy of 3.6 with:

"The LDR Committee has an Executive Committee composed of the

(a) The three PA/USATF LDR Chairs (open men, open women, masters). 

(b) Subcommittee Chairs as designated by the LDR Committee, including
XC and Ultra Chairs. 

(c) Two PA/USATF athletes representing one each open and masters, who

are selected by the PA/USATF Athlete's Committee annually. In the
event that the Athlete's Committee does not select these
representatives, the LDR Committee shall appoint them.

(d) Other appointees (temporary or permanent) designated by the LDR
Committee, including the secretary, scorers for road, xc, and ultra,
road GP bid coordinator, and other at large members.


3.7 The LDR Executive Committee examines and organizes current LDR
issues and makes recommendations to the LDR Committee proper in order
to make LDR meetings more productive and efficient.


3.8 The LDR Executive Committee shall also have the right to determine
matters which would otherwise be determined by the LDR Committee but
which arise between LDR Committee meetings and whose resolution in the
judgment of the LDR chairs cannot await the next LDR Committee
meeting. If in the determination of the LDR chairs such a matter is of
too great an import to be adjudicated by the LDR Executive Committee,
they may request that clubs vote by email. Such a vote, sent to all
the official club contacts and to the LDR egroup, if existing at the
time, and in which each club has the maximum number of votes to which
it is entitled, has the same force and effect as if it were made at an
LDR meeting. Clubs must have at least ten days to respond to any such
email vote."

3/20/05  San Francisco

16.5  New section: "In relay events, there are no individual comps,
but a team that won its age division in the prior year's grand prix
shall receive one complimentary entry."

5/8/05 San Francisco

[No minutes available. These are based on the agenda, and the notes of
the LDR Chair published in CT&RN.]

9.1.1 or 9.2.1 This and the next item would look good combined as a
separate paragraph between current 9.2 and 9.3. "The LDR Road Grand
Prix may not exceed a total of fourteen races for individuals, and may
include one relay race, for a possible maximum of fifteen events in a
calendar year." 

9.1.2 or 9.2.2  "The following calendar guidelines for the Road Grand
Prix are not requirements, but bids for races that meet them will be
given preference. (1) No bid will be accepted for a race occurring
before February 16 or after December 15. (2) No bid will be accepted
for a race occurring after July 14 and before September 1. (3) Short
series races should be between February 16 and July 14."

11.2 Early in second sentence delete "10k and", after next word
"shorter" insert "than 10k". Between second and third sentences insert
two new sentences: "10k events may be scored in either the long or the
short division series. Each year, when bids are accepted per 9.2,  the
LDR Committee will decide for each 10k whether it will be scored long
or short for the upcoming year."

11.3 [Do not post yet, see A] Add fourth sentence "However, the
maximum number of races in which an individual may score in the short
or long division Road Grand Prix is six."

12.2e  New: "A team member in a relay event may score only one leg for
that team, and may score only on one team."